November 17, 2022 | 45 min

Episode 4: Exploring Growth Marketing

We've been curious about marketing in L&D for so long! Exploring personas, learning as much as we can about our audience, among others. But there's more that we can borrow from marketing! In this episode, our guest, Miruna Dragomir, CMO at Planable, walks us through the AARRR growth funnel, and works with us for a very specific use case, sharing how she would approach marketing a leadership development program.

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Episode Podsheet

Here's the main things we got out of this episode, and something you should keep in mind as well.

Episode Transcript

Offbeat On Air: Miruna Dragomir

Lavinia: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Offbeat on Air. Millie is here with me and we're very, very excited about this episode. This is a special one for me actually, because we have, as a guest, my best friend, which I've known for for some years now, and it's, it's really interesting because I've seen her grow from a social media manager at Oracle into a growth marketing role at Uber, and then having even more responsibility as a chief marketing officer at Planable, which is actually one of our most interesting startups from, from southeastern Europe and. Along the way, I had the opportunity to learn a lot from her and bring some of her practices into my roles as learning and development.

Lavinia: So we thought this might be an awesome opportunity, for everyone to meet her and to get inspired and maybe we can learn something we can apply to improve our roles. So welcome Miruna, how are you?

Miruna: Hi. I'm good. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for inviting me. I would've been upset if you didn't, I guess so, check on that. And definitely excited to, and, and hopeful to, to bring some value. 

Lavinia: Awesome. Good. So, I said a bit about you, but can you tell us from your perspective, how did you went into marketing and how did you end up as a chief marketing officer? 

Miruna: Yeah, so as you said, I started my career and my official career in working in social media at one of the biggest corporations out there at Oracle. Which I think, you know, it was a really good experience and it taught me very early on. I mean, it showed me that I enjoyed working with numbers quite a lot, and that kind of was reflected throughout the other roles I eventually had, you know, at Uber it was so much growth, marketing is so much about data.

Miruna: And it was, it was very, very focused on conversion and optimization of, of funnels and processes. And that kind of works very well with hybrid growth roles, which is, which is how, I guess I ended up at Planable. So I went, I think there's, there's two highlights that I, that I point out in my career. And that is, the red threads that I've had with data across all the roles and then kind of going from the biggest corporations to, the small startup, at least when I joined, Plantable had one employee beside me, so that was very early on. 

Lavinia: Nice. You mentioned something and I was actually talking to Millie about it. You mentioned growth marketing, which might be something that's not that familiar to us because we've heard about marketing, but this term growth I think brings something new to the table. Can you, I dunno if there's a definition of growth marketing, but can you walk us through what you do as a growth market?

Miruna: Yeah. So, I mean, you know how all of these terms start and then they become very commonly used, but then, then there's no clear original place where they, where they first came up, I guess, you know, growth marketing is, it's marketing that covers a lot more areas than traditional marketing does because it used to be a lot about awareness and getting word, the word out there and kind of drawing as many eyes as possible to the product or service that you were, that you were selling. That was what traditional marketing used to be. It was a lot about branding and commercials and, advertising and I guess growth marketing the biggest innovation that it comes with is that it controls or focuses on the entire funnel, not only on acquiring and bringing awareness to the brand but following the customer journey until the last point, until, you know, they churn or they hopefully retain or they refer. So that kind of it expands the role a lot more.

Miruna: But besides that, it has become lately a lot more about a lot more technical than it used to be, kind of before there was a balance, I guess, between creativity and data and analytics and, and small tweaks. But now as technology evolved and as you're able to test a lot more and you're able to rely a lot less on your intuition and a lot more on data, marketing has transitioned to this role in which you use the creativity of course, but use creativity once you have data, once you have some insights rather than out of the blue. I don't know if that sums it up well. 

Lavinia: No, it's, it's a good intro, I would say because now I have so many questions. You first mentioned the, funnel and you mentioned some stages. Can you give us the full view of the funnel because I'm really curious how that applies, would apply to us as, as L&Ds. 

Miruna: Yeah, So the most, the most popular funnel that is being used right now in growth marketing, it's called the Pirate Framework. And it's called the Pirate Framework because it has this weird sound that it makes once you spell it out. It's, R I guess. So it has two A's and three R's. And it starts with acquisition, which means of course, you know getting a lead, whatever that means, however you define it. That can be getting some sort of interaction, getting an email, getting a visit on your website.

Miruna: In any case, the awareness side, you could, you could also call it, it then goes into activation, which is the second stage, and that is when you. Again, everything is customizable to each use case. But the main idea is that you manage to make that user or person you acquired into doing an action that kind of activates their interaction with your product, with whatever you're selling. That can be signing up, that can be subscribing to a newsletter that can be again, very, very different from one use case to another, then it is a referral, a retention, and revenue. Yes. So these, you know, as, as opposed to a lot of the past, Funnels. I think this one is the one that's, that's so flexible.

Miruna: So these stages, they are intertwined. You can change them up. For example, for Planable the company I work for retention comes last at, at least the way we look at it, that's the last step. We only look at retention once we're sure the user is activated. The user is active, so we don't necessarily look at retention in the early days because if they drop off in the early days, then we consider that the problem was activation rather than retention. Revenue comes, right before retention, there's revenue and referral is something, you know, that we, whenever you feel like, the user, your customer is ready to share the product that they're using. And that, again, can be very different because it's also about whenever you feel ready to ask them to do that. Is it when they're retained, is it when they're fully convinced, or is it right in the early days when they're excited about the product?

Lavinia: That's so nice. I already have some thoughts because for us there are many frameworks out there. We don't have an R Pirate R, but I think our work starts with research, basically understanding the user need, which I do feel it's a bit product related. Then the design of it, which is again, also product related, but then we jump into marketing which I, I maybe Millie you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I, I'm not sure if we’re that good at marketing or if we're that focused yet on marketing?

Lavinia: I do feel we still assume that because our users are our employees, they already know what we're doing. What do you think about that? 

Mili: Yeah. I feel we are missing some some steps in, in how we approach it. When you now mentioned, you have this activation, and actually, I never thought about it, like we have this acquiring mindset like, let's find who is our audience, but we don't have this first initial touchpoint, let's activate and to see. So I feel there are like moments that we are missing in our nature of, of work and it feels that what you are saying should complement our work for sure, because of course, like we operate in a different context.

Mili: But it feels that we don't have all these touchpoints to give us the data to tweak the product, the end product. I don't think we are there. Or maybe someone is, but at least from my experience, we are missing some of those

Miruna: For this just to add a bit here, cause you mentioned, this extra step that you're not looking at. I think for any marketer that works in conversion optimization, the kind of first rules that you learn is that you have to go from big to small. So you have the macro image that gives you the biggest steps possible, right?

Miruna: Have they heard about us? Or how many people hear about the product? How many people try out the product? How many people buy the product? Let's say these big three, three steps. But this in itself, if you just learn that a lot of people learn about the product, but very, very few actually try it out.

Miruna: Then at that point, this piece of information doesn't give you that much to go with, so it doesn't give you any information to change the experience. It's just something you know that something's wrong at this point. But in order to actually fix it, the next step is to break it down to the smallest steps you can, you can think of.

Miruna: And we kind of call that macro moments and micro-moments. And micro-moments can be, you know, they land on a specific page, but they don't click on anything. And then you start brainstorming problems. Do they not see the button? Do they not understand what we're selling? Do they not resonate with what we're selling?

Miruna: And then you can start kind of guessing and experimenting based on those hypotheses. 

Mili: And may I ask you, because that's a lot of data, right? That you are collecting in real-time from multiple channels. So would you say that the technology you use will be crucial in making sure that you are able to do your job properly just to understand how big the impact actually is of the technology that provides you this cuz it feels a very complex network of data you need to work with?

Miruna: Yeah, for sure. We have a lot of technology and if we wouldn't, then of course our, a lot of the things that we now do would be virtually impossible. You know, this is just top of mind. So I hope it's it makes sense. But you could kind of split technology into data collection and then technology that helps you act on that data.

Miruna: Cuz those are kind of two separate things. You have data that shows you how many visitors you have, whatever they do on the website. And then you need technology to experiment to AB tests, you know, to show different versions of whatever you're doing and seeing what works best. 

Mili: That's so interesting. You know, when we talk to, I don't know, vendors or LMS providers, they will talk about, you will get nice dashboards. But that's what you're saying. Like we do get just what is happening with the data, but then the step of actually how to influence that.

Mili: It's, it's a lot on, on us actually. It's not something that we will pull from from technologists.

Lavinia: I'm also curious because, okay, let's say you have a landing page out there and you notice that some users do that, some users do that, some users do that. How do you. Because I guess you're testing different variants, but how do you decide on what to test and with whom? I'm not sure if my question makes sense, but. 

Miruna: No, it, it definitely makes sense. There's a prior, there, there are frameworks to kind of prioritize your experiments. The easiest way to put it, it's, it's, you usually look at impact versus effort, the classical story. So the impact is decided by the volume.

Miruna: It's decided by the amount of people that will see that. So if you test something in the first part of a page that will for sure end up being a lot more important than testing something at the bottom of the page, because so few people end up even looking at the bottom of the page. If you test something on your homepage, that is more important than testing something on one of your third, secondary pages that you have that are just for extra information because your homepage is usually, or your landing page is usually the most viewed one.

Miruna: So and the effort of is of course, can you implement it on your own? Is it doable via your LMS, or do you have to include some sort of developer that only has time for you in three weeks from now? That kind of gives you another point of reference into what you should start with. 

Lavinia: I actually wanted to mention for anyone who's listening that even though you might not have access to very complicated technology these days let's say you're using Notion for other purposes in your company, there are tools that you can even integrate with Notion, which is Notionlytics or something like that, at least to have, you know, the, the minimum data is anyone looking at what we, we are doing and the program that we are launching, because yeah, definitely data gathering for L&D is something very complicated, and it's not only complicated in this, in initial phases where you're talking about getting users to use your product, but it's even more complicated when, when we talk about retention and, and referral.

Lavinia: And I do wonder how, how do you operate on, on that side? 

Miruna: Oh, retention is this. I deeply believe that that is something no one really figured out. But it's it's one of those, yes, very, very broad and complex subjects because it's the more I read about this, the more I realized that it's, it's not something that, it's very different from the rest of the fun of the stages in the funnel. When you look at acquisition, you can pinpoint it. When they first hear about us, what do they know? What do they understand? What are our messages? What are the actions that they're taking? When they purchase, you know, they have a form they, that form can be bad. That button can be bad. The price can be bad. You have clear moments that influence, whether they go move forward or not. But retention is one of those things that is influenced by every single moment that happened before that. We talk about activation, but activation can influence retention a lot because if you activate them with the right action, then they might get the product, understand the product better from the start, that might influence the way they use that product throughout their journey and make them retain more. But if you activate them with, false promises or with a secondary benefit that's not the core of your product, then that will drop the retention. So there are actions that you can take for the sake of retention that are usually first focused at the moment of drop off. Whenever you find out people are churning, what is that moment in which they seem to start slip off your product or service? But that is, I guess, you know, those can be the first actions, but that's a very, very small part of the journey.

Miruna: It actually probably starts way before, before that moment that they decide to cancel, drop off unenroll, or whatever. 

Lavinia: I actually have a thought because I'm not sure how much we ask people in L&D, why did you not join the other session? So let's say someone joined one session out of six, but maybe that's something we could do talking about retention and drop off, like meet them at the point of drop off and try and understand what did not work for them because that, that actually influences our, our product further on. So that's definitely something we can, we can work with. 

Miruna: Yeah. And that usually the most common way to do that is usually by offering incentives. A lot of companies offer discounts or Amazon coupons or anything because it's obvious that at that point in time they have almost no motivation whatsoever to talk to you or explain to you what went wrong. By this point, if they decided to drop off, then it means that they decided this is not right for them.

Miruna: So it, it's really optimistic to think that they'll do, do it out of the goodness of their heart. 

Lavinia: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Good one. 

Mili: And maybe before we go into more what you could do at each stage of the funnel, thinking of, you know, some real examples, what I'm interested to hear from you as is this more strategic view on you gather the data, you learn from data and that shapes your offering, your product, your service. And that requires one strategy, right? But how can you actually influence the user behavior by reading this data? So this push and pull dance, because if you have something within your product that you want to bring to the audiences, does this funnel change totally? Or are some stages where you really have to play so that you gather their attention and bring something to them that maybe they didn't even know they needed? 

Miruna: Yeah. So there's two thoughts in my head right now. One is that you know, in the most part of marketing, you don't really actually influence the product or service. You start with, you only have the possibility to kind of influence the audience or change the audience.

Miruna: Those are the two things that you can do, bring better messaging. If you know you have the right audience and you hope you have the right product, at least for a marketer, you have to hope because, well, if you don't, it's a lot harder to change. So assuming that, that these two are correct, then your problem is that you're not saying it right. You're not selling it right. The messaging that you're using is not pushing the right buttons and or it's not clear enough. So you have to play around with that. And to do that, you try to understand how your audience speaks. Language is a big part of it. What are the words that they use? Cuz you might think that, you know, marketing was a phrase, Super great. Like, you know, these kinds of words like streamlining, if making it more efficient saving time, whatever. A lot of buzzwords that sound really good for you as a marketer, but then when you talk to your audience, they talk about the problem that you're solving in a very different way by using very different words.

Miruna: So that is one step. And then the second is to make it as convincing and as clear as possible. Clarity is a big part of it. And, I would introduce another notion here of awareness, level of awareness. There is this thing that we try to analyze in growth marketing where our audience is at in terms of problem awareness and product awareness.

Miruna: So, if your first problem, if your audience is not problem aware, then you first have to educate about why they need a service at all, or a product at all. And then actually introduce your product. And then you go into, okay, they know they have a problem, but they dunno that I have the solution.

Miruna: So then you can actually speak about your product. 

Mili: Oh, I love these two levels. It's explained so much why we are failing on many things. But no, that's really insightful because it makes so much sense, right? Now when you say it. And maybe we can go a little bit now into some examples because I think what we hear in our community, there's a lot of this campaigning around, or like creating a campaign or knowing how to run a successful campaign. So if you agree we could go a little bit to unpack what does that mean?

Mili: Maybe we could create one campaign together with you and, and see how, how we can actually make it as effective as possible.

Miruna: Yeah, that sounds great. 

Lavinia: Good. Then let's go with an example that I think everyone can relate to which is leadership development. So let's say we're a company of, I don't know, 1000 employees and we have around how many leaders around one hundred, one hundred, one hundred and fifty leaders. And we have done the research, we have built our, our product, and we are planning on letting those end users know that our product is out there. And usually, our product is about skill or knowledge acquisition, and for leadership development, it can be anything from knowing yourself better, knowing your team better, or knowing the business better, let’s say. How would you, I'm not sure if this is enough information, but you can also ask questions and I'm curious, how would you go by it? 

Miruna: Okay, so the first question or that I would ask you or myself if I, if I were doing this, this campaign is - how do I know that this product that I've built, this educational program is right for my audience, how did I come about it? Was it because I know from, I don't know, their feedback that they needed or from their managers or upper management that the leaders have this lack of skills, or is it something that came about when I surveyed them and they told me themselves that they want this product?

Lavinia: That's a very good question.

Miruna: The answer to that question would kind of probably give me this level of problem awareness. Do they first, firstly, do they know they need this, this course, this product program that, that we've built? Are they 100% aware? If not that has to be included in the messaging. So before you start thinking about distribution and promotion the important step is the messaging.

Miruna: Remember, and remind everyone involved what the insight was. How did this program start in the first place? What problem is it trying to solve? What is the context? And then start with the messaging. And when I say messaging, I'm not necessarily referring to the actual emails or landing page copy or whatever the actual messages.

Miruna: But the, we, I usually write a main message that is kind of a five, four or five sentences that explains it all in the best way. That can be, you know we've just launched this program. It is for X, Y, Z, it will bring you this and that benefits reason why we did it, and so on. If we find out through our insights and remembering however we started this, that our audience is not actually problem aware then the educational problem, they can't actually completely unaware. Or if they are, if they are completely unaware, then we should show them that somehow our data shows that 80% of our leaders do not know their team, do not know themselves, whatever. And just explain it to them that there is this problem. If you think they probably know this deep inside, but don't necessarily actively think about it then there is this idea of nagging the problem, reminding them of the problem, and that you do by you can use specific examples, you know how many times have you found yourself in a one-to-one room and have no idea what to say, what to ask? You're just completely lost in that interaction. Well, you know, that happens because X, Y, Z here's a the program that will, that will get you there. Yeah, that would be, so that would be the first step, you know, mapping out the insights that you have and defining the messages and the approach that you're gonna have in this campaign. So then once you have this, the next step is to start thinking about the distribution and the audience. The channels. So then you think, you know, where do I best find these people? Where are, they're they most active via email, internal, you know, like Slack whatever.

Miruna: And you, you start mapping those channels out, how, you know, in terms of frequency, how often you're gonna, you're gonna reach out to them. It's usually good in terms of email or whatever it is we usually drop a drip campaign, we call it. That means you have a series of messages. One email never does it for any audience whatsoever.

Miruna: So a drip campaign is very standard. You have a first team that informs them about it, then you have a reminders, follow ups and in the follow ups I usually like to include more reasons why they should take that action. Or you can even, if you really wanna go next level, you can split the audience. So you know, you have the people that never opened the email to them.

Miruna: You wanna maybe wanna change the channel or you wanna just continue changing that subject line in the hopes that they will open one email. And you have the people that did open the email but never took any action. So to them you want to add more reasons why they should do that. So quotes I don't know, studies content reflecting how important it's for them to do this.

Miruna: Kind of ways to convince them. So yeah, channels are a big part of it. How frequency of those channels and actual messaging, and I'm thinking you, you should probably have some sort of plan B, plan C I guess you usually have targets, right? So out of those 150 you want mm-hmm how many do you want to register?

Lavinia: Okay. I would say, everyone, just everyone to challenge you a bit.

Miruna: In the marketing world, everyone is impossible. But let's say you would have everyone, if you have, if you have a target, whatever that target is you, that allows you to kind of adapt along the way. So if you send the first email blast and you see you only have two registrants, you have to go to 150. So at that point, you know you'll have to push more. You have to keep that flexibility along the way because you may think, I, I got the right messaging, I did all my research, but then you see no one responds. You have to look at it again with fresh eyes. Why are they not responding?

Miruna: There's something I'm doing wrong. You can ask if you have a few of people, you can ask them, how come you haven't registered? What is it? And you can adapt the messaging along the way. And another part that I would say, I don't know how relevant it is, is that usually ensure that we have one place for everything. Whether that's a landing page or a pdf or there has to be a place where all the information is and well, where all the data is, where I can actually see how many people visited and everything, and what action they took and where they can find all the information. And it doesn't have to be just, you know, a dump of information, but actually, a marketing landing page that explains them, again, what this is, but it gives you a lot of space to play around with the design and everything as opposed to an email.

Mili: I love that. And I think what you said gives us also ideas, you can diversify this audience and also the messaging to the point, if we see it's not working, how can we maybe involve the, the senior leaders to also become part of that campaign, right? To make it visible beyond what we see the target audience to activate more people around it you can actually reach different stakeholders as well with this messaging. So it's a very powerful tool once you have all the skills and technology, which we will talk about in a second, but it feels with this knowledge, you can change the way we operate. Quite significant. 

Lavinia: Milli, you mentioned something and it kind of working with stakeholders, and it kind of made me think of working with influencers. Can you walk us, because I know you have some experience with that. Can you walk us a bit through that, that type of work?

Miruna: Yeah, Yeah, we've tried and we work with influencers. It differs a lot from B2B to B2C. So when we're in the B2B world, meaning we sell to other businesses, software, and that kind of, tt usually means this world has influencers that are a lot more niched, more micro-influencers that focus on a specific topic rather than, and B2C can be just a celebrity anyway, irrelevant.

Miruna: I think the, the way we choose influencers is depending on the topic that they are most influential on, we try to understand why the people that follow them, listen to them, and whatever they speak about kind of gives us information into their audience. So if they focus their conversations a lot on if, I mean they can approach a subject like social media, but you can approach it in so many different ways, like how to start and social media and or, you know, very advanced and then yeah, you know, it's let say marketing is very transactional. So you pay, you get views and likes and engagement and everything. But looking, I think, you know, the relevant part here could be how we discovered these influencers and we try to look at our audience and who they listen or follow or engage with. And that should give, give us an idea of, of you know, the influencers that we could, we could find.

Lavinia: It just makes me think that we usually, as L&Ds, we go to the authority. Mm-hmm. and assume that they are the ones that will influence through authority, everyone else, but moving towards more, I think more progressive organizations where authority is no longer, that it's not that it's not important, but rather you have other factors that influence people.

Lavinia: It's interesting to know that we can look maybe for middle managers or for an amazing engineer that's respected by everyone because of his knowledge and so on, and actually, you, you mentioned transactional, but it's also interesting, to keep them engaged along the way because you keep them engaged with money. The question is, how can we keep them engaged to, you know, keep selling our products? 

Mili: That's very nice what you said because it's making me just think like where do you feel their power lies in terms of your audience? Is that to like awareness part or actually are they strongest in conversion? What is your experience? Because I do believe in a also just peer and social network you have right influences everything that you do. So, therefore, your colleagues around you can definitely influence or promote or just convince others to join the program. But the question is, where do you see them strongest?

Miruna: I could, I, I would say that they, it depends on the influencer too. If you go for influencers that are more wide range or more mass audience, then it's for sure awareness. You're just hoping that the word gets out there and it's big enough. The volume is big enough that at some point it's gonna make an, It's gonna impact your revenue.

Miruna: But if you go for micro-influencers, then you could actually hope to for them to push the entire funnel, I guess I mean, to, or to, to drive their visitors, to actually their fans, to actually try out the product, which is a pretty big ask not only for them to know your brand's name, but to actually try the product.

Miruna: That happens when the influencers are more niche so they have a better relationship with their followers. They have a, a clear grasp, and their content by default is more more specific rather than, you know, general advice. Hearing Lavinia, talk about the the top management and the middle management, or what the points of leverage are kind of reminded me a bit about the classic. Top up or bottom up or top down approach that happens in marketing? So whenever you sell a product, in theory, you should know if you go bottoms up, meaning you go to the people, to the end, the end user. Or you go top down, meaning you go to the decision maker.

Miruna: So who you target, the decision maker is it's often not actually the, the end user. And at least in software that happens a lot. And the, the approach is very, very different be, and that is because the benefits are very, very different. So when you sell to the decision maker, who is most often the manager or the leader of the team that will be using the product, you have to give them benefits.

Miruna: Like your team will be more efficient, more creative, you'll save money, you'll save time you'll be able to handle more work, you'll be able to take on more stuff like that. But when you go to the actual user, they don't really care about the efficiency of their, their team. They care about their frustration. They care about, they care about how much they enjoy their work, they care about different benefits. So it's, it's, it's quite yeah, quite ddifferent. 

Lavinia: That's very interesting because I think, I think in our work as L&Ds is we, the, the little marketing that we do is most of the time, I wouldn't say always, but most of the time targeted toward the end user.. Truth be told, even in L&D, the manager does pay a price because it, it pays the price of having someone that's taken away from their team, which is, you know, time, money and and so on. So yeah, I do think that for organizations that are already operating in more innovative ways, somehow that they don't make people go to different programs, but rather they prefer selling to them. They should take this into consideration. 

Lavinia: I think we already covered a lot and I was wondering if there's anything else that you think might be important. There are two things that we, we've been struggling with along the way, which is working with data and working with technology. And the question is, how have you influenced your team into using more of, of the two in their work? 

Miruna: So first of all, I try to remind everyone into kind of somehow send through this value that we have as a company, which is, you know, productivity and efficiency.

Miruna: But it translates for us, it's, it's not just, you know, cuz these words can seem so empty when said without context, you know, productivity. Of course everyone wants their employees to do more with the same time, but it's rather. To actually use their talents. That's what it is for me at doing. We don't, don't recruit people to just get the job done.

Miruna: That could be done by anyone else. We recruit them because they have something they have. Kills. They have specific knowledge, they have specific talents that make them very good at their job. So if they spend their time copy pasting stuff or doing very manual work, then that is a waste for us. But it's a waste for them, for their talents, for their passion, for everything.

Miruna: So first of all, yeah, I try to kind of have this reminder at all times. I ask them constantly when. They slip some sort of information that they spend or wasted a lot of time because something took a lot longer than they expected. I asked more questions, asked them to take me through that process and to see together how we can optimize it through technology, through tools that we can buy or through you know, just automation, whatever it is.

Miruna: There's always a way to make it more. To optimize it more. And secondly, I use a lot of tools and I'm always excited about them. So I share them with the team. We have constant conversations about the tools that we're using, how everyone is feeling about them, whether they like them or not.

Miruna: What's good, what's bad, what's missing, what's what's extra. And I, Oh, that, that was something I, I knew there was something else that was, that was missing. I ask a lot of questions to kind of, hopefully, awaken this passion for data and people meaning whatever anyone says in the team, like they don't like this. Our audience doesn't engage at all. This content will not, is bad or is bored or whatever. I ask more questions about, you know, what the data behind that is. And that's not something I never say it with, you know with the scope or tone to shame anyone that they don't have the data, but with the purpose of making a note that we should dig deeper and validate or invalidate the, that intuition that we had.

Miruna: So if we say, Okay, this no one cares about. Content that we launched. The next question is, Oh, do we know why? Do we know? Are they not visiting the page? Are we doing enough promotion here? And whatever the questions, whatever the answers are, I don't know or am not sure. The CTA is okay. Can we look into that and talk about it at the next meeting?

Mili: You are an influencer.

Mili: I'm an influencer of data. 

Mili: I love that. And maybe because now we talked how, you know, you work with your team. Maybe the last question would be for nonmarketers. To get acquainted with this topic, gather some skills, maybe explore some tools that are really hot, hot, hot. Where would you direct us?

Mili: Where would you recommend people to start to learn more about this.

Miruna: Good question. Reforge is a, is quite a, an amazing blog. It, it covers a lot more than this. It started talking about product management and product marketing and a lot more, but in the beginning, it talked about growth a lot and it has very, very good content in that sense.

Miruna: I'd start with Reforge and Brian Belfer, which is kind of the founder of Reforge and has a separate blog as well, and covers a lot of, of topics and to the funnel. He also has a big presentation on this that goes through each step of it and how that should look like. So it's a, it's a very good place to start.

Milica: Nice. We will then check it out and I remember back in my times when I was learning a little bit, I don't know if that's still actual, but the HubSpot Academy. 

Miruna: HubSpot has the most diverse content for beginners to it's, it's, it's more focused on beginners.

Miruna: But it's, it's, yeah, it's definitely a good, a good read. 

Mili: Okay. I think, yeah, I, I was a beginner and I, I remember it helped me a lot. Just understand. So yeah, that can be another resource. So, so nice to learn all of that. Like I put so many notes and I will check all of this out. So thank you so much, Mira. This was so insightful. 

Mili: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Lavinia: Thank you so much for listening to today's podcast, which was all about growth, marketing, and tactics we can borrow to attract and engage our audiences in a more strategic. 

Milica: We hope you learned as much as we did, and that you took this as a gentle nudge to reflect on which of Miruna’s practices you can actually adopt in your work as a learning & development professional. All our lessons learned are captured in the episode podsheet you will find in the description of the episode. 

Lavinia: If you're looking for more resources, go ahead and subscribe to our newsletter or join us in the Fellowship where we facilitate social and practical learning among others to help you grow in your career. 2Create a happy day and never stop learning

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